I watched the last two episodes a few hours before publishing this. Same criticism but at least some minor points have been clarified. Patreon: SharkRobot: TikTok: Twitter/X:
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Reviews of Hazbin Hotel, Niffty Building and World
I watched the last two episodes a few hours before publishing this. Same criticism but at least some minor points have been clarified. Patreon: SharkRobot: TikTok: Twitter/X:
the thing about vivzie's work is that it reminds me a lot of funamusea– stylistic character designs with a good amount of gore and some taboo sprinkled here and there, but it doesn't have the overarching theme that eventually purity will degrade and become corrupted.
idk, I don't think the show does anything new or interesting with its writing and the characters feel like such a mixed bag, lol.
I was a Vivziepop fan since before HH was a glimmer in anyone’s eye and tbh the artstyle that made me like her work is gone. I understand why, her style relied a lot on being kind of wild and off model which is not sustainable for team projects, but it killed my enjoyment. And her shows don’t seem invested in their own premises. Another commenter pointed out that HH and HB all but completely abandon what they were about initially to get into shipping drama and that’s exactly why I lost interest. I don’t care about Blitzo and Stolas’ toxic yaoi, I came for the thing the show was named after and if the show’s not interested in it, I’m not interested in the show.
This is far from all my issues with both HH and HB—to be honest I have very few positive things to say about either besides that I support indie animation projects on principle—but those are the relevant ones.
I'm about 90 percent sure, you are of the minority, in not liking Angel, plenty of people empathize and relate to him. It's cool if you don't, but plenty of people do
This show is not following a single mythology, it borrows from many, lilith is from Jewish mythology, and theres 8 episodes, not 6
this show is ass and the creator is very egotistical
yea
There are many inconsistencies in the show, but what aggravated me to no end was the ending. Imo it was sloppy at best. Spoiler i guess
Making some huge point of sparing Adam's angel GF (Lute?), she immediately getting up and our heroes getting in danger because of that is trying to make some kind of character growth for Vaggie but it actually destroys the "growth" that she had in the training sequence with Carmila – which felt extremely forced too. Now suddenly the love and tactics do not matter I guess, because she is "better than those pesky angels"TM .
Also Lucifer… making a huge deal out of starting to care for Charlie, getting a song and all that but HE CAN'T BOTHER TO SHOW UP TO DEFENSE ON TIME. What was he doing, talking to his ducks? Counting seconds so that his entry will be exactly the very second he can save his daughter? It's not like the defense was unexpected at this point. It was an event planned in advance. Everyone was there. But he had to show up at the last moment. At this point his character growth could have just not happened at all, he is not part of his daughter plans. Unless I missed something, that could have happened but I don't think he was mentioned at all.
Those things broke the immersion for me and exposed the biggest weaknesses of the whole show. It will sacrifice logic and worldbuilding to have a cool disney moment. Consistency does not matter. Rule of cool takes precedence and we should not think about it too hard. Those things can be excused in a long running show, but it's literally a first season.
The is hell excuse works for HB it's about demons being demons. In HH it doesn't work sinners lived a lufe of sin, and not one sin is brought up for anyone. It just becomes about fighting the system and family issues
I 100% relate to this bc I really like to talk about concepts and story ideas. I feel really passionate about them and hearing character stories from other people or theorizing on story stuff!
You are 100% describing my approach to conversations. I'm either in or I'm out. You're talking to a cardboard cutout of me or the encyclopedic armchair enthusiast with his notebook ready. 50% LOTR, 10% dinosaurs, 10% dune, 10% strategy games and 20% history. Anything else I don't connect with super well unless it relates to an interest.
I'm surprised you watched the show, it doesn't really seem like your jam. But also these are like, some of the weirdest complaints I've ever heard?
I actually don't agree that this show doesn't care about character….if anything, it cares too much about its characters. It wants so badly to deal with these complex themes, but then it's too enamored with its own characters to actually handle them with any real kind of nuance. Except, of course, for Adam and Lute, who are purposely designed to not have nuance.
The biggest issue I have is with Charlie and Vaggie's relationship. The setup there is incredible, with the almost "princess and knight" type dynamic, but, twist, Vaggie's actually a member of the oppressive overclass that Charlie wants to protect her people from…it has all the makings of something interesting and complex, ESPECIALLY after the big reveal–and then, SPOILERS: the resolution of their conflict is literally just…nothing. They get back together without even TALKING about any of the inherent underlying issues with their relationship.
You love music? Prove it: Name ten songs.
I haven't watched the show yet (I'm not paying Amazon prime), but years ago while I was watching the pilot, I was expecting that the plot would be Charlie trying to get redemption for the sinners and all that, but she would either fail because it is hard, but also that it is literally imposible to cross that line, either it can't be done for some weird rule or the angles would be "Celestial NIMBYs" not letting the "sinners" getting to heaven, in a protestant/JW style, so from that point forward the plot would be Charlie coming to the conclussion that they don't need to get to heaven, but to fix hell, like, we've seen good people in hell Charlie, Veggie and Angel, his one eye friend, Nifty are actually good people, so, there has to be others with similat intentions.
Maybe secound season would have been them going on a political rampage to root out corruption and mob bosses to create a better hell. That would be awesome with a great message. Maybe sometimes going the conciliatory route but other times going on turf wars agaisnt the geatest kingpins of hell.
WHERE WERE YOU CHILDS?!
Well said
the way you describe your behaviors…plague…i dont think thats introversion.
im not going to say what i think it is, but im sure youre smart enough to figure it out.
My main issue with the show, aside from the lack of proper explanations for how their world works (outside of supplemental materials), is that there's little to no sense of pacing. One episode Angel Dust is acting the same as he always does, and the next he's a stand up guy, as if he's actually made progress. And they never imply that significant time has passed.
Say Plague, are you autistic? I mean no offense. I'm just asking because I happen to be, and the way you describe yourself sounds familiar.
Oh, and watch all of helluva boss! Music is awesome, fables are pretty great, balancing stupid gags and real character growth and real human feelings and problems is done really well generally.
Please watch the pilot again, then the music video with angel dust, then any episode of the amazon show. The juxtaposition in tone is insane.
As a Christian (i know that's cringe forgive me) I thought your take on the mechanics of salvation/damnation in the show of Hazbin Hotel were interesting and informative. I personally had to watch the show because some fellow Christians lied about how the show supposedly "was promoting sexual abuse to kids" and i ended up having to watch it to see the truth because i value truth above all else and all the evidence was that the show did not do such a thing.
I ended up actually really liking the show despite its incredibly vulgar nature cause i found the characters to be really relatable, even Angel Dust. I agree tho that the mechanics and justifications for salvation/damnation/redemption are very confusing and could use more explanation as the series goes on.
My biggest issue is that the show makes light of the idea that their is a risk of uprising in hell, and paints the yearly exterminations as an act of entirely cruel people who have no empathy. But if we think about the fact that Hell, even in the universe of Hazbin Hotel, has all of the worst people in it. AKA all the child-buggers and Hitlers of the world. The chance of an uprising in Hell not only poses a danger to heaven… but a danger to the entire fictional universe. Assuming heaven can be overthrown, that might create a morally inverted universe with all the worst people deciding what is right and wrong, AKA, the Hitlers and child violators. I'm not saying exterminations are the answer, but in my opinion, something has to be done to keep Hell in a dominated and submissive state in order to prevent the worst universe possible from becoming a reality.
Its just "ahhh we are nasty, perverted, selfish, deranged people but we are adorable so we are not evil but good and also good people are not good and also evil".
It could be clever and fresh, but even in the times of Warcraft 3 it was overused trope.
A lot of the brain things you're talking about, in relation to getting your thought entirely cut off when someone interrupts or whenever a new thought takes over (as well as similar things you've mentioned in other videos) sound similar to my own ADHD diagnosis.
Not sure if that's a lead to helping you, but I hope it has a chance to enlighten at least slightly.
Something that bothered the hell out of me, is that there's no real firm grounding for stakes.
"Heaven is going to come and Genocide everyone in hell" is a potentially decent idea, but I have no idea what that sentence actually means. An ancient gag at this point, but where do the souls go after they get killed in hell? Detroit? Super Hell? The Void? I have no frame of reference. In the opening, we see people getting murdered and cannibalized, is this different than the heave purge? Is it some how not impactful? Do Heaven weapons destroy Souls? We, the viewer, have no idea about the rules and as such can't really get a feel for what matters.
Another thing that isn't clear is power levels. It's straight up said that the Radio Demon just appeared one day and started taking out the other Lords of hell. It's established that he was around in alive in the 20th Century, so he's not some ancient demon, he just showed up one day and was immensely powerful for reasons that're never adequately explained.
My rant that was deleted from reddit after watching Hazbin Hotel…
If you dont want to read this shit, just remember to praise our ancestor – Dickmeister.
>Lucifer and Lilith fuck over Adam and fuck off from Eden
>Returned just to ruin perfect creation for humanity, screwing Adam yet again despite him not pursuing vengence or anything
>Forced Adam to watch as his children kill themselves for ages
>Create pathological hell system that rewards egoism (Liltih)
>Possibly crate hell armies that endanger pepole in heaven
>Heaven decides to give probably mentally broken Adam a task of extermination of sinners that he hates with passion becouse of above the reasons, becouse muh dreamer power couple can't govern for shit
>Their daughter creates organisation that does not teach even repentance but makes hotel denizens civilised, by just giving them place to sleep and something to eat, without really changing, which naturaly creates positive bonds, but does not make them pay for their mistakes by actively using their skills to changing hell for better
>Said daughter comes to Adam and Sera, and claims that now, because they smile and are nice to each other, it's their fault that they are not in heaven, despite the fact that they dont have a say on redemption.
>She does not even attempt to understand you, just is egotisticly asking to stop exterminating cannibals, rapists, serial killers, while also sheltering one of the biggest sinn(g)ers (his song with Lucifer is fire) in hell history, who does not even attempt to change, yes good ol Alastor
>Adam and Sera are shown as antagonists.
Honestly the season should end the same way, with one big difference. When Lucifer breaks Adam mask, he changes his tone and goes on full rant against humanity and their sin (which of course will be also hypocritical from his side), while absolutely destroying Lucifer and whole cast while pointing all the shitty thing fallen angel did, while mocking him by saying something alongside lines "hell is paved with good intentions" (which can be also applied to Adam exterminating sinners) when he tried to rebuke him, but before the final blow is struck, Archangel Gabriel appears and stops everyone from fighting, even resurrecting dead demons and angels. There are new orders from Big G – God values free will, but that goes to far, and constant warfare between hell and heaven endangers human realm and creation. Thus if they will not be better, he will wipe the slate clean, now Exterminators, Demons and Angels have to figure out how to live with each other. From there you can go any way, political intrigue when overlord positions are in danger, influx of demons to hotel wanting to escape death, unrest in heaven, as angels were nice due to high quality of living but not because they were just, Adam and Lute having to face reality of the fact that some sinners deserve second chance and even would take it, but they are kept in the sin by their environment… Adam did nothing wrong, Lucifer and Lilith should go suck dick, maybe I should write fanfic.
For pepole claiming that Lucifer is a stronger, check story of Jacob, he fought Angel 1vs1 and got blessed by God for his strenght.
I find the characters plenty relatable, so I suppose this might be a difference in our life experiences. I have PTSD as well as self-destruction and deep-rooted self-esteem issues so it's pretty easy to relate to most of the main cast, especially Charlie, Angel Dust and Vaggie. I also value found families over blood relatives, and the found family of Hazbin Hotel eventually becomes extremely wholesome and just makes me smile constantly. Especially Sir Pentious.
Thank god someone will say that "great taste" in music means like nothing at all. I'm someone who's loved to play and listen to music my whole life, got pretty skilled with woodwind and stringed instruments, and Never have I understood what it meant when someone claimed to have "Interesting taste in music." Sure there are some execution level things that can be somewhat "objective" and you can make arguments about whether or not the elements of a song successfully conveys an idea, but if someone doesn't care about that, there's no real extrinsic reason for someone to care. You like the music you like, and that's totally fine.
This show will only be remember as Glee, the animation.
And maybe for its design.
Thta is everything the staff go for after all
Exactly
The show loss all depth because its needs to:
-have 2 musicals per episode.
-Characters need to stay simple.
-Slurs.
-Animation takesbpriority iver anything else
-Everythinc is Retcone regularlty
Especially so beacuse this characters where background ones from Zoophilia, a comic that had SOME depth, but was discarded because creators got popular for her artstyle
So they focus on that here on, characters where reeuse, retcone, simplify, and then Hazbin pop up. Which was basicly a double down.
Now you see the results.
Also, yes, staff are all friend, they have been doing podcast and syream togheter for years.
Kind of feels like he barely watched the show
Here's a fun thing to compare Vivzie's depictions of Hell, Heaven, and Free Will to: How Ultrakill depicts those same topics.
Also, I seen all of the show yesterday, already having seen a good chunk of Helluva Boss; neither are my cup of tea for a lot of the reasons you spoke of (I also don't like that it's a musical) A lot of people I know really likes that show, but the 'humor' is so front and center and combined with the 'edgy and snarky' character archetypes of practically every character in both shows rubs me the wrong way, as in they're just annoying to me.
You sound like a person that'd be pretty interesting to hang out and do watch parties with. I usually don't join other people's Discords because of various reasons, but I've watched a good portion of your art gripes and video essays and I'd love to pick your brain about certain things. I tend to like watching stuff at random, yet I am so freakin' choosy and it took my girlfriend and some friends to get me to open my palette to new things so to speak.
My main criticism of Hazbin Hotel (and Helluva Boss) is that Vivzie spends too much time away from her main cast throughout the series.
Considering Hazbin Hotel, the main cast consists of Charlie, Vaggie, Alastor, Angelus, Husker, Niffty, and Sir Pentious. That's seven characters already, so why not spend the first season exploring each character of the main cast, one episode each? Instead, we get new character introductions almost every single episode, and the cast feels so bloated if you're doing that. Or maybe that's just my take, and I'm wrong to think that, I dunno.
I think Vizipop should listen to this. Could probably help for Season 2. Goat take as always PlagueOfGripes! Luv ya man.
20:52 Couldnt agree more, I too was somewhat dissapointed by show abandoning its original premise of therapy. Btw Helluva Boss ALSO did it, it had the premise of "Office showe but in hell" and after, I kid you not, EPISODE 2, they abandon that premise
18:47 Not sure where you getting this from? Sure Vivizies version of hell doesnt look like average version of hell in fiction in that sinners arent directly tortured but its not a "cool edgy paradise" either, its heavily implied their "hell society" is extremely flawed even without exterminations, In episode 1 in the first song it shown extreme violence(sinners killing each other), filth(the fact some bozo showed himself naked to Charlie), self harm(hangman, I dont think yt likes the s word for self harm), extreme poverty.
in episode 2 it was shown that sinners in hell who ARE somewhat well off are quite literally brainwashed by Vox tech(he literally shown to have hypnosis/brainwashing abilities when he used his eyes to shut up the reporters) which is pretty scary concept, literal TV/tech zombies, also his tech violates privacy. Also hes shown to be friends with Val and we see glimse of how Val treats his "employees' aka 99% likely sinners who sold their soul to Val, with him wanting Angel back in the studio and ready to attack hotel for hiding him, he also killed Velvettes employee and while show itself didnt told it but Vivzie confirmed that sinners dying to other sinners will reincarnate back in hell but in extremely painful way.
in episode 3 we see how just the sight of Zestial overlord makes other sinners commit self harm on themselves due to being afraid of what he'll do to em, also one of the overlords in the meeting, Rosie, is a cannibal running cannibal colony.
In episode 4 we see Val's abusive behaviour towards his employee, and in ep 4 and 5 we see literaly loan sharks and how they hunt anyone who opposes em.
Again Vivizies hell isnt exactly that "hellish" but its by no means a "hip and cewl place", sure I can agree that Vivzie didnt exactly do a good job world building vise and tons of the info is from outside sources
11:18 Ngl wish your video touched more on this aspect, this sounds actually interesting and I wonder how Vivzie couldve build her show better to reflect the "salvation through work" message which might be what shes hinting at
11:54 Also I forgoe that you didnt see last episode before you made this video(because it wasnt released yet xD) but yeah Vivziepop sort of indirectly confirmed by certain death and reincarnation in heaven that it IS salvation through work, a character died heroic death for his friends(and he was doing better at the hotel) and he got salvation
12:30 She technically tried doing that through Adam in episode 1, its just he and Lute gave VERY cold shoulder to her, I do think they couldve atleast explained better why Charlie continued her project if she got rejected by THE Adam, yeah you know THE Adam the FIRST MAN on Earth… And she didnt even think "well maybe we screwed" and she just continued doing her thing which, good for her that it did pay off in last episode but from character standpoint its kinda confusing why she did what she did. Also episode 6 was her trying to pitch the idea again but through people higher then Adam on hierarchy so again, there IS some good story in there, its just not well developed due to lack of episodes
13:58 I dont think that was her point though, the point was "why does, say angel dust deserve damnation and ridicule for all eternity for a mistake when he can change" and he did change in ep 6, sure he didnt turn up super duper wholesome 100% perfect person but isnt that the point you talked about earlier? that nobody is perfect? Idk it seemed to be is that Charlie just questioned why Heaven is so restrictive and doesnt even entertain the idea that someone who ended up in hell can change, especially since Vivizies version of hell is vastly different from other versions of hell
10:58 No I dont get it? Besides exterminators and I gueeesss Sera, the heaven wasnt shown all that much and most people werent shown to be as bad or worse then Hell residents. I mean when Charlie and Emily(angel mind you) gave slightest pushback and talked about exterminations, the entire COURT was in shambles and angels were drawn with sad faces implying they didnt know about exterminations and they dont condone them. How is it showing them being bad people? Lily Orchard also made this point but I and most fans dont see what you both see, besides Adam Lute and their exterminatiors army, most angels were shown as neutral or even good people like Emily and most of the court. Even Sera says she didnt really want this but only did so because of desperation.
In ep 6, Angel wasn't perfect, but he was certainly better. The higher empathy and putting Nifty's safety over his own was what was on display at the end.
There are 8 episodes and the first season is finished
its a cartoon . its a fiction . dont worry about accuracy on real thing xD . people that butthurt about it just had nothing better to do in their life.
and you forgot to draw the bow .